Longtime lobbyist helps to demystify how the statehouse works

By Trip Jennings
New Mexico In Depth
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​New Mexico In Depth Executive Director Trip Jennings talked with longtime Voices for Children lobbyist Bill Jordan on Sept. 3, just days after he retired Aug. 30 from more than 30 years spent lobbying New Mexico lawmakers on a variety of issues at the Roundhouse. Trip talked to Bill about his experiences over the decades and together they tried to demystify the Roundhouse for readers and viewers. Thanks for watching. This is the first in an occasional series New Mexico In Depth is doing on demystifying the statehouse and the New Mexico Legislature.
Here is a transcript of the conversation with Bill Jordan.

Trip Jennings
Hi, everyone! I’m Trip Jennings with New Mexico In Depth. I’m executive director. Thanks for watching. I am joined here with Bill Jordan who until Friday, right, was with Voices for Children. One of the organizations anyone who spends any time around the Roundhouse in Santa Fe — the State House — knows Voices for Children. They’re a very prominent organization that lobbies, as the name suggests, lobbies for children, things that make children’s lives whole and things like that. So welcome, Bill. Thanks so much for appearing with us.
Bill Jordan
Thanks. Trip. I really appreciate the chance to chat with you, share some stories, some experiences, and maybe we can demystify a few things about the Roundhouse.
Trip Jennings
I would love for us to be able to at least begin to demystify a place like the Roundhouse, because I do think that it is. It is such and, maybe use the wrong incorrect the word incorrectly, but it in some ways can be so opaque because many of the policies are arcane for folks. And really maybe I’m too much of a nerd, and maybe you are, too. But I find it just extraordinary up there. I just find it extraordinarily interesting. But anyway, thank you so much. I do have some questions I would like to start with, I mean, would you talk about your trajectory because you did not start with Voices for Children. Can you tell everybody here a little about yourself like, where’d you grow up? How’d you grow up? You know? What did you do before? Voices for Children?
Bill Jordan

Yeah. So I grew up in Kentucky right across the river from Cincinnati very close to downtown Cincinnati and was raised there, Catholic schools all the way through grade school, high school, college, and then a master’s degree in religious studies. So I was steeped in it. I moved to New Mexico about 37 years ago, and it was at that time that I started doing volunteer work for people with HIV and AIDS. That was the late 80s, early 90s. The epidemic was raging at that time and after a few years of volunteering I was asked by the Department of Health to set up a nonprofit that would get community input and help the state develop a plan for HIV prevention and treatment. And I did that for eight years, as the Executive director of the HIV Coordinating Council of New Mexico. And then, in 1998, the drugs were beginning to work really well, and the epidemic really changed, and the drugs showed a lot of promise, and the state decided that they wanted to put all of their money for HIV into making the drugs more accessible to more people.
And so we had done enough community planning, creating the state’s plan for HIV, and so the coordinating council was dissolved. Shortly after that I went to work for New Mexico Voices for Children and been there until now.
Trip Jennings
At some point during your work with the coordinating council, I believe this is right, and tell me if I’m wrong, but you were able to help lobby the Legislature to pass a law for the first needle exchange program in the state.
Bill Jordan 
Yeah, that’s right. We did that. Actually, in the last year that I was there in 1998. We were fortunate enough to get the votes to pass a syringe exchange program for IV drug users. The evidence at that time showed that we could dramatically cut the rate of transmission of both Hepatitis and HIV among drug users, if we could provide them with clean syringes. And you will remember that Gary Johnson was very interested in drug policy. He had a keen interest in that, but he was steadfastly opposed to using tax dollars to provide what was an illegal activity drug use, and he just couldn’t figure, you know, in his own mind he couldn’t get past the idea that we were using state tax dollars for an illegal activity, and he totally got the importance of the public policy in terms of trying to stem the transmission of these two terrible epidemics. So I met with him. We passed the bill through the Legislature and I met with him three times during that 20- day signing period and tried to convince him to sign the bill, and I left his office after the third time, thinking that he wasn’t going to sign it. There was 30 minutes left for him to sign or veto the bill and I got word that he had signed it.
Trip Jennings
That’s amazing. I mean, also I want to say for the listeners who don’t know if a bill passes in the last three days of a legislative session, the Governor has 20 days to sign the bill. That’s what Bill is talking about, and it’s extraordinary. If it happens before the last three days, the governor has a much shorter time period to sign the bill. You know I wasn’t here when he was governor, but I’ve met him several times, and I’ve …you know, read up, you know, on the news stories and stuff. What an interesting governor, because he was in many ways. Libertarian means something else today than it did, maybe 25 years ago, I think, to some people. But he really was in many ways a Libertarian, which meant, you know, social policy, probably a little less. He wasn’t that conservative on social policy, but on financial like fiscal stuff, very conservative, I think. Which made him. It sounds like, maybe even ripe for your lobbying. 
Bill Jordan
He saw it as a long term money saver, because we’re talking about two very costly diseases with Hepatitis and AIDS.
Trip Jennings
 Yes.
Bill Jordan
And so, you know, he got that part, but, also, I think he also saw this as an opportunity to become engaged in the public policy debate around drug use and what it meant. And it was a small thing that he could do without being, you know, too far out on a limb. After all, the Legislature passed it, which was in itself kind of a surprise. They had defeated it several years in a row, and then in 1998, they passed it.
Trip Jennings
I remember reading about him when I was in another state covering a different statehouse and obviously he ran for president, you know, on some drug legalization policies, as I recall. So, you you got to work with Gary Johnson, which is just a treat to hear stories about that cause. Those of us who have met him know, we know, that he’s a very interesting person outside of the Roundhouse — extreme athlete at some point in his life. And just a really interesting, entertaining guy. So how did you make the transition to Voices for Children? Did you see a connection between what you were doing with the coordinating council, HIV coordinating council, and children.
Bill Jordan
Certainly for me there was. I mean, after we closed the HIV coordinating council, I went to work for Voices for Children. At that time it was called New Mexico Advocates for Children and Families and then the state formed the Children, Youth and Families Department. And there was some confusion with the name, and so we changed our name from Advocates for Children and Families to Voices for Children.
Trip Jennings
I didn’t know that the CYFD had been formed that recently. So it was in the nineties. Is that right, or in the early thousands?
Bill Jordan
I don’t know the exact date.
Trip Jennings
But it was after you joined Voices for Children. I didn’t know that history, that’s really interesting.
Bill Jordan
I think so. 
Trip Jennings
Okay.
Bill Jordan
Timing wrong, at least the confusion got to the point where.
Trip Jennings
Yeah.
Bill Jordan
We changed the name, yeah. And I was originally hired to lobby on youth, gun violence, prevention. And I did that for a couple of years, and then was asked to lobby on all of our other issues at Voices for Children as well. And you know, if there’s a connection between the jobs, it was that both of them were about using public policy to help people.and both were focused on a population that needed help. In the first case it was gay men, IV drug users and others who were most at risk of HIV, and in the second case it was about children, especially those from low income families who had little access to healthcare, and some of the other social structures that are needed for families to thrive. And so I think there’s a connection. It was a matter of being in a place where I was able to help out those most in need. 
Trip Jennings
And that that makes total sense. When you frame it that way. Yeah, it’s all children, but especially children who maybe their parents may or their families lack resources. Is that correct? It sounds like that’s correct. Can you talk about some of the issue areas that you have lobbied on for Voices for Children? Because you mentioned youth gun violence, but by the time I met you when I got here in 2005, so I met you mid 2,000s, Voices for Children was lobbying on a lot of issues. At least. Can you name some of those issues that you have lobbied on over the years? Not everyone but ones that really.really you recall.
Bill Jordan
Yeah, maybe the way I would like to answer that is to talk about how some of that happened, and some of the more memorable moments because they really involve both winning and losing. And I think, as you know, it’s rare for an important piece of legislation to pass the first time it’s proposed. You know a good example of that is the proposal to use a little bit of the Land Grant Permanent Fund for early childhood. That took 12 years. That idea was born at Voices for Children, and it took 12 years before the Legislature, and the people passed it. And what a difference it’s made! I mean hundreds of millions of dollars now to build out a world class pre-K K, child care, home visiting programs that they’re going to take time to build out. But we have the money to do it because the people wanted it done, and that, I think, is, you know, just one of the one of the heartbreaks for many years, and then sort of elated when it finally passed. And now we’re really beginning to see some of those dollars flow, and the difference that it’s making in the lives of kids and their parents who need to go to work and have to have a place, a safe place for their kids while they’re working. So you know, that’s a great example of one of those that, you know year after year it was heartbreaking. And then just a phenomenal win for the people. 
Trip Jennings
I might have been at the first press conference for this proposal in 2011. I don’t know if that was the first press conference, but I seem to remember it. I tracked that like you said it was 12 years. It was like one year, there were so many votes. Another year there are maybe a few more votes, and then maybe a couple of years. I don’t even know if it got through because of, you know, the governor at the time was not necessarily so keen on it. But yeah, for all those who are watching who don’t know about state houses, even innocuous bills sometimes can take two to three years to get through. It gets kind of complicated when we talk about the Land Grant funds, and when exactly the money, it didn’t actually touch the fund, as I recall it, was going into the fund, and they would just take some of that. But it was really opposed. It was a tough battle for many folks, and it was a monumental effort over more than a decade.
Bill Jordan
Oh, yeah, monumental. It really was. It’s not unlike a lot of issues. I mean, you know that from being up there, that sometimes you need to build momentum for an issue sometimes. It’s complicated, and it takes a couple of years to get it right. And so, you know, if you’re looking for, instant gratification, the Roundhouse is probably not the place to be. If you are really interested in good public policy, and have the patience to work it and get it right, it can make a real difference.
Trip Jennings
You know, as you were speaking about that bill, it reminds me that lobbyists have to have at their command, an understanding of key issues. How did that work for you? I mean, did you have to really study these issues closely to be able to lobby effectively.
Bill Jordan
I lost you for a minute. Trip. I’m back. Are you?
Trip Jennings 
Yeah, can you hear me?
Bill Jordan
Yeah.
Trip Jennings
So I was asking, you just reminded me that lobbyists, it’s not just talking to people. You really have to have a command of the issue and / or at least be able to introduce people, lawmakers, to people who have a command of the issue. But even lobbyists. Even those who connect folks have to have a command of the issue. They have to at least be able to form a narrative. Tell a story of how this will help. I mean in some ways as a journalist, and it may be true of lobbyists, I always think covering a state house is like almost earning an additional master’s degree. Because you really learn about so much. Is that how you feel because you’re always studying right, aren’t you studying stuff, different issues?
Bill Jordan
You know, Trip, that’s especially true for me, because I’m not a policy analyst, you know. Voices has a whole team of folks who are experts at this policy. and they’re the ones who teach me about what is important at the Roundhouse. And so they know the details and they’re able to get in the weeds. But I’m much more of a generalist. And so, the worst nightmare for me is to work with a lawmaker to get them to support something or sponsor it, and then they start asking the really difficult questions that are beyond me.
Trip Jennings
Right! 
Bill Jordan
Well, folks back at the office who really do this inside now, and they will sit with you and testify with you, present the bill, be your expert witness. But yes, you’re right. Lobbying is very much about having to get in the weeds on some really complex issues.
Trip Jennings
Everything from financing and finances to, you know, how agencies interlock and work together. We at New Mexico In Depth have covered lobbyists as part of a larger project but in many ways lobbyists are our best friends at New Mexico In Depth because people like you have been up there for dozens of years. Any state house — and I would think Congress is like this as well — is a hard place to gain an understanding of and how it works. If any young journalists are watching this video, make friends with lobbyists because yes, they’ll be lobbying on this thing or that thing. But they also talk to one another, right? And they know what’s happening each day of the Legislature like something’s happening in maybe you know a committee over here. 
How are you able to stay up on everything that’s going on every day. I’m not asking you directly, but you guys really do have to keep up with what’s going on every day of a legislative session.
Bill Jordan
Yeah, we really do. I mean, you need to know what’s going on with your own legislation and with other legislation that might impact what you’re doing. So I guess what you’re saying is that both lobbyists and reporters … when you’re at the Roundhouse it’s ears open all the time. And yes, you know, a lot of what happens is based on relationships. And so you kind of need to know who’s getting along with, who who is not getting along with.
Trip Jennings
Very important, very important.
Bill Jordan
It’s very important, you know. You don’t want to ask the wrong person to help you out with an issue by helping to get someone else’s vote… If they’re not getting along that day. So you know, it’s really important to know who’s supporting, who’s opposing? Who are the swing votes, which legislators do or don’t get along with other legislators. What bills might be in that mix, you know, in terms of their relationship and support or opposition to each other. All of those personal dynamics are just really important. So that you don’t, so that your own bill, and the work that you’re doing doesn’t get caught up in something that’s unrelated to the issue that you’re working on.
Trip Jennings
Because we know that there have been bills that have been killed because they got in the middle of some kind of turf war, or some kind of personal fight going on between lawmakers. That happens. In my experience, it takes time to build those relationships and know who’s talking to whom? Is that true for lobbyists, too? You really have to build a network of relationships, right, to know who to talk to, and who might know if these two lawmakers are beefing over here, so you may want to stay away from them. That kind of thing, right? It takes time right.
Bill Jordan
Yes, it does. It takes time to build those relationships and also with other lobbyists, you know. Learning who you can trust. You know, there is often a lot of negotiation about amendments, and who’s gonna offer support for something. And it’s really important to know which lobbyists you can trust, and who is a worthy opponent. In some cases, you know, they’re they’re not hiding something that might be important to the legislation. And you know there’s a lot of lobbyists that I would never support their legislation. I mean it, you know, corporate hired guns that are there to build profits for corporations, or whatever it might be, and yet some of them are really honest brokers. I mean some of them, I trust their word at least. I may not agree with the issues that they’re working on. But as a lobbyist I might trust them. And then there are others that I wouldn’t.
Trip Jennings
You know, as you say, this is one of the great things that I think that people outside who are not really privy to of the Roundhouse, any statehouse or Congress, is that, yeah, people can disagree. But over time I’ve heard lawmakers say this over and over again to me, which is, hey, I don’t agree with this person, but you know what, they gave me their word, they’re gonna keep it, and I know what to expect. I’ll work with this person on this issue over here, not here, but over here, because they’re trustworthy. And it’s heartening for me as a reporter. Because it’s not the thing that you get during election year, where people are at each other’s throat, and they’re throwing ads at each other. It’s more like, this is governing. And it’s hard work. And relationships are built. And there are people with whom you can disagree on certain issues, but you can agree on others. Right? Same thing with lobbyists. Right?
Bill Jordan
Yeah, the relationships are really important. And you know, being able to trust one another both lawmakers and other lobbyists is really an important part of the work.
Trip Jennings
So let me ask you, that’s a segue. I mean, I could talk about that all day long, because I just find that so interesting. But what are the best parts of lobbying? And maybe the worst parts that you found over more than 30 years, you know, lobbying so many issues are, are there certain things that you really enjoyed and you thought they were really great. And others that, you know, were tough.
Bill Jordan
Yeah, since we’re talking about lobbying, let me let me say a quick word about it, because I think the word often gets a bad rap, because the image that often comes to people’s mind is some wealthy corporate hired gun that’s there to get a tax break for their corporate client. And clearly there are those. The Roundhouse is full of them. Okay, but the Roundhouse is also full of well-meaning folks — lobbyists, advocates, concerned citizens who show up to try to encourage their lawmakers to do the right thing. And there are a lot of really good lobbyists and advocates in the Roundhouse, and I’m really grateful that they’re there to improve education and
pass paid family medical leave and raise wages for workers, protect the environment, make sure we have enough clean water, good roads, and fair taxes. All of that is just really important for our communities. Our lawmakers and governor are really doing great work, and it’s been a privilege to be a small part of that.
So to answer your question. So yeah, for me, the best part of lobbying is knowing that something I’ve done is actually gonna make a difference in the lives of kids, parents, families, communities. Knowing that I played some small role in making somebody’s life a little bit better is absolutely the best. 
Trip Jennings
And you see tangible evidence of this. It’s not only the bills, but you can be walking around Albuquerque and know that a program has been funded, or there’s tangible evidence for you. As a lobbyist, you can see how this might have changed lives right, or helped alleviate some privation.
Bill Jordan 
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you see that. And you know that the system is working as it’s intended to. Lawmakers really are there doing the work of the people and doing their best with what they’ve got to improve chances for kids and families.
Trip Jennings
You know the thing that I also want to say, Bill, and I still want you to answer about the worst part. But one thing I will say is that what’s striking to me is when you cover politics, as I have done as a reporter, kids are always, you know, in campaigns, front and center. You know, they’re always we gotta do it for the kids. We gotta do it for the kids. And when you get up to a place like a  state house or Congress, the feel good stuff is not  … I mean, it’s a hard slog. Sometimes it’s a hard slog, and that I’m not disparaging lawmakers or anything. It is just hard work to create policy that might affect the lives of many children, and you know, especially in a place like New Mexico, where there is just so much poverty and … it’s a wonderful, beautiful state. And yet it does have challenges. And so I just want to say that when people hear the campaigns, it’s always about the kids, sometimes the governing is much harder than just saying that stuff.
Bill Jordan:
Yeah. You know. And we used to say, who’s for kids and who’s just kidding during a campaign season because, you’re right, everybody campaigns on the well-being of kids. And then when it comes down to it, you know what kids need is safety, world-class education, good health care, and all those things cost money and they are pitted against other interests, usually tax cuts. And so yeah, it’s a tough slog. And, you know, a lot of lawmakers really are for kids. And then there are some that are just kidding.
Trip Jennings
Right, right? And I, you know, over the time I just want to say this as a reporter. You don’t have to respond to this, but I have found people on both sides of the aisle who are very concerned about children. It’s not Democratic or Republican. I’ve just met many genuinely concerned lawmakers up there. So what is the worst part of lobbying? Let me ask you that, let me put you on the spot. 
Bill Jordan 
The worst part is, when you lose on those same issues, you know, the disappointment can be pretty heavy. You know the questioning about what we could have done differently to get the needed votes. All of that is really heartbreaking, particularly when you know you gotta wait a year, sometimes two, to come back and try again. But I will say that having done it for that many years, that it is also often the case that that loss is temporary. And, as you know, it often takes years to pass important legislation. But if the proposal has merit, it’ll gain support, and it’ll eventually pass. That was true with syringe exchange, and it was true with the Land Grant Permanent Fund. It’s been true with all of the amazing improvements we’ve made to our tax system, improving budgets for public education and for healthcare. All of that is, you know, slow to come. And yet, I think we’re on the right track with all of them.
Trip Jennings
So I wanted to ask you because of the several hundred lobbyists at the Roundhouse you have to be in the top 10% of longevity up there easily, I would think. 
Bill Jordan
You’re not calling me old.
Trip Jennings
No, no, no, I didn’t mean that all. I’m saying you’re experienced. You’re experienced. I’m someone who believes that, that’s a good thing, you know, having experience. You know. Tom Horan used to say anybody can lobby the first 57 days of a 60-day legislative session. It’s the real lobbyist who lobby the last 3 days, you know. So I would consider you like part of that, you know, coterie of people who understand the importance of lobbying as someone who’s been up there for so long. You know there has been a movement in the last, probably decade to really introduce more disclosure around lobbyists like, how much are they paid? The expenses like for those people who don’t know there is, is, there is, there is wining and dining of lawmakers by lobbyists who are representing certain interests. And there’s been a push to, really, you know, open up how the process works. Even smaller things like, what bills are you lobbying, or what issues you’re lobbying. What’s your take on that after being up there for so long, more than 30 years, and having a sense of the place?
Bill Jordan
Yeah, well, let me say, we already have to disclose our lobbying expenses. We only have to do it three times a year, but you know, if we meet with a lawmaker over lunch and pick up the cost of that at lunch we have to report that so those expenses are reported. Campaign contributions are also reported already. You know I work for a nonprofit, so I’d be happy for the public to see how my salary compared to those of the corporate lobbyists. Yeah, I wouldn’t mind seeing that myself.
Hello!
Trip Jennings
That is, you have the contracts that that private sector employers have for lobbyists. Public sector, you can go through and request records to get, and it’s somewhat public. You still have to do the work. When I talked about the expenses, I mean the itemized expenses, I mean, there, you know someone who’s been around for a while, we know that sometimes people can say, Well, I paid only this much, we don’t have to report the itemized expenses if we don’t go above this threshold. That’s kind of what I’m talking about. Yeah, that is it. Do you have a sense of that, do you think?
Bill Jordan
Yeah, I think all of that should be disclosed. Yeah,I don’t have a problem with that. And I, you know, I think that kind of transparency is great, I mean, I think you know, it would be helpful for the public to know exactly what corporate lobbyists are doing. What’s the Chamber doing? Big tobacco, pharmaceutical companies, restaurant owners, big oil, all of them, you know. They’re up there, you know, spending a lot of money on lobbyists and on expenses and on campaign contributions ultimately to try to influence the legislation that they’re that they’re working on. And so yeah, I think it’s important to have all of that disclosed, and I think lawmakers ought to be able to see that, you know, and know exactly who is playing on what team and what they’re, you know, what they’re really doing. And to see, for example, contract lobbyists when they may have conflicts of interest.
Trip Jennings 
Tell the viewers and listeners what a contract lobbyist is.
Bill Jordan
It’s you know, maybe you’re a small company or a mid size company, you don’t have a full time lobbyist. So you hire someone who knows the process and lobbies for a living and has a lot of clients. And so you hire them on a contract to work on a particular bill and you know, or a particular issue. Trip, you’ve probably seen this where you’ve been in a committee hearing, and a lobbyist will stand up and say, I support this bill, and I’m here for Company X. And then the chair will say, is anybody in opposition to the bill, and the same lobbyist will stand up and say, I have another client who is opposed to the bill, and it’s you know I mean the whole room laughs.
Trip Jennings
It is how this works. I just wanted for people to get a sense. We have done so many stories on lobbyists, and we might have contributed to this idea that lobbyists are not great. We don’t mean to, because lobbyists were at the founding of the nation. I mean, you can look back and see that they were, you know, people lobbying in the first parts of Congress and stuff. It is not a bad thing; in fact, as I say, as a journalist, they’re some of my best friends up there, because they know stuff, and so I can go to them and say, Hey, what are you hearing? But you just kind of revealed, maybe demystified, some of this. I can’t know someone’s mind or heart. Right? But this is what happens. When you’ve got so many issues, there are people who can argue sort of like a lawyer in law school, you have to be able to argue both sides of something because you need to understand it so well. I mean, it’s extraordinary. There are those moments where the people do laugh. It’s important for the public to know that this happens. And not not that we’re pushing for contract lobbyists to lose business. It’s just that, that is the way it works. I could talk all day with you about this stuff, because I find covering or being around a place like a state house to be like the human condition on display. You’ve got every human behavior there, I think. Sometimes I mean there, there’s not violence necessarily, but there’s so much going on there. I just find it fascinating. I know some people might think it’s like paint drying, but not me.
Bill Jordan
Yeah. Yeah. I think if there’s one thing you know, when it comes to not just transparency, but the influence that lobbyists have, I would just say one other thing, and that is, there’s a lot of discussion now about a paid legislature and lawmakers getting staff. I think that is critically important. You know, if they’re gonna do the best job for the people, they should be paid something for that. And one of the things that a lobbyist does is actually almost provide staff support for lawmakers. We help them create their talking points, prep for a hearing and
that gives us an extraordinary amount of power. And that power probably ought to lie with the lawmaker and their staff and not quite so much with the lobbyists. I mean. I like to think that Voices brings a lot of expertise to the Roundhouse, and we do. But it doesn’t mean that we should, or anybody else should, have that much power to influence legislation without having lawmakers have the staff to vet what it is we all bring. I’m a big proponent of lawmakers having staff and lobbyists, having just a little less power and influence. And I’m not saying that because I’m leaving, I’m saying that because that’s my experience. And I think we want the very best in law making. And that happens when they have professional staff working with them.
Trip Jennings
I wanna say, too, to add to what you were saying, there are also not just talking points and stuff like this. But I know this because I’ve seen it. You’ve got technical lobbyists who are like experts on a particular proposal, who will actually tweak a law because they have technical understanding of the issue. Some of this stuff is really complicated. To your point, because I did cover another legislature, another state where they did have full-time staff, and they were paid. You know we’ve talked to people who study this, and when you have this situation as you do in New Mexico, lobbyists do have more power. They have power in a lot of places, don’t get me wrong, but they have more power in a place like Santa and Santa Fe because of what you just said. Again a lot of the lobbyists I personally like. It’s not that I think they’re doing a bad job or anything, but it’s to your point. That’s a lot of power.
Listen on that note. I want to thank you, Bill, for being with us. I think I went over a little time. I apologize. Cause you are so interesting. Bill Jordan has been a long-time lobbyist for Voices for Children up in Santa Fe. He retired his last day was Friday (August 30th) It’s been delightful talking to you and learning a little more about the Roundhouse.
Bill Jordan
Thanks, Trip. I enjoyed talking to you, and I wish you luck up there.
Trip Jennings 
I’m gonna need it.
Bill Jordan 
When you, when you head up for the next session.
Trip Jennings
I may hit you up for coffee or something, so we can have coffee and talk, even though you’re retired.
Bill Jordan
Anytime, I think my schedule is open.
Trip Jennings
Thank you everybody for watching and listening. I’m gonna end the recording.